Timing Belts Are Evil

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 01/26/2015 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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I believe timing belts are of the devil. I like my cars with good old fashioned timing chains , like God intended. I've always believed this, and my faith was reinforced by personal trials I faced in the early 1990s.

I owned a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . For those unfamiliar with the line of cars in the pic above, it would be similar to the one on the left. I bought mine used in 1993 and it was fairly low mileage when I got it. The car had a dual overhead cam with a timing belt that was about a mile long. Up to that point I thought I had lived a fairly good life - and had done nothing to deserve the persecution I was about to face.

Shortly after I bought the car, I was in stop-and-go traffic. When I went to go, the engine died. The car was still under warranty so I had it towed to a nearby dealer who quickly diagnosed the problem as a broken timing belt and replaced it. No charge.

A fluke? No.

4,000 miles later, it happened again. I assumed that the dealer had somehow done something wrong while replacing the previous timing belt. The dealer said the problem was a broken timing belt. They repaired it under warranty and said I could come get it. No charge. They did not have any idea why the belt had broken a second time but they did not seem concerned about it. Clearly, they were adherents to the Cult of Timing Belts.

4,000 miles later I was driving north on I-75 in my Daytona and all of a sudden the engine died. I quickly depressed the clutch and looked at the gauges. The tach was at zero and I was coasting at 50 MPH. What the heck: I made sure I was still in 5 th gear and let the clutch out to see if I could kick the engine and make it restart. As if it might not be the timing belt.

The engine did not start and the tach did not jump. Rolling along at 40 MPH in 5 th gear, the tach reading was zero RPM. I'm sure someone in the readership can tell me where this tach got its reading from but clearly the engine needed to have its timing belt intact to do that. I took it out of gear and coasted to the side of the road. I called the dealer and told them to come get me again. From where I was sitting, I could see the then recently-opened Chrysler World HQ, where an accountant was probably being promoted for having figured out how to save a few bucks by using a timing belt rather than a timing chain on my car.

I rode to the dealership with the tow truck driver and found the service writer who had written me up on both previous visits. I showed him the previous work orders and reminded him that I had been in twice recently with the same complaint. He seemed to understand. We went over to his work station and he printed out a Repair Order: "Towed in. No Crank. No Start."

Again, I am not a mechanic but the car did crank . It wouldn't start but that was because it had a broken timing belt . So, I asked him to write that on the Repair Order. "I did," he lied to me. I suspected his dark master forbade him from writing the words Timing Belt on the repair order.

"I can read. It says, 'No Crank. No Start.'" I wanted him to know I was on to him. "The car will crank."

"Same thing. The mechanic will know what this means." I noticed his pupils were not round, but slits, like a serpent's. Or maybe my memory embellished some facts over the years? It's hard to say. Those were trying times.

"Humor me. Write 'Broken Timing Belt' on the repair order."

The service adviser glared at me; his eye slits narrowed. He picked up the Repair Order and handed it toward me without writing anything more on it.

I refused to take it. "You and I both know it's the timing belt. I am not taking that until you write 'Broken Timing Belt' on it."

He pulled out his pen and scribbled, "Customer thinks it's a broken timing belt," and then handed it to me. Apparently, by blaming the words on me, he was off the hook.

The next day someone from the dealer called to tell me they had replaced the broken timing belt again. No charge. I was now convinced the car had broken timing belts on its previous owner every 4,000 miles and had been traded in because that owner was sick of taking it back to the dealer. Now, I would be dealing with it every 4,000 miles unless I took similar action.

I called the attorney I dealt with at Chrysler and told him what I just told you. Since I bought the car used it did not qualify as a lemon under Michigan law. But, as I pointed out to the attorney, Chrysler was going to spend a fortune replacing that belt every 4,000 miles with how much I drove. We reached an agreement and Chrysler gave me a "coupon" good towards the purchase of any Chrysler product. At the time, I really wanted to buy a Jeep. I found one I liked, negotiated a good deal for my timing-belt-equipped trade and then I whipped out the coupon to help defray the cost and drove off in !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

And Yes, the dealer knew the Daytona had the timing belt problem. I told them and it was written on the coupon. Were the next owners told of the problem? I'm sure they were. Ha! Of course they weren't. But that's someone else's problem, right? As for me, every vehicle I have owned since then has had a timing chain, not a belt. And !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! when I sold it with 241,000 miles. I'll stick with my timing chains. You can go peddle your devil-belts to someone else.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto is a writer and attorney and has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we're not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn't act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

bob and john > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:04

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*wonders if his motorcycle has a chain or a belt*
*finds out I have a chain, but the 'rich man" version of my bike (ducatis) used belts*
HA SUCKERS

TheHondaBro > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:04

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I'm glad cars are now being built without timing belts. I absolutely hate timing belts with a passion. If it goes bad, you're engine's going to explode and it's going to cost thousands- no matter what car you have- to get it rolling again.

505Turbeaux > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:04

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truly evil. I have a friend who currently drives a beater Volvo whiteblock, and doesn't have the money to replace it should it end in a noisy death. He also has no idea how many miles on his timing belt. I send him pictures of the aftermath daily to get him to get his shit together and go through his service records. I suspect I will be doing a t-belt soon, or laughing

My Mercedes will just get loud before the guides on my chain go

SteveLehto > 505Turbeaux 01/26/2015 at 13:05

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I didn't even mention in the article that the one other car I had with a belt (I hate to admit it - a VEGA) had a timing belt. Which also broke on me one day. That is the bad thing about them - they don't exactly warn you when they are about to break.

As Du Volant > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:07

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I am so, so glad the industry is moving back toward timing chains after so many years of using belts.

Were the next owners told of the problem? I'm sure they were. Ha! Of course they weren't.

I'm sure things were different 20+ years ago, but nowadays anytime a Chrysler goodwill certificate (what you had) is used toward a car buyback the dealership is required to disclose to the car's next buyer the prior problem and how it was fixed. Failure to do this will result in the goodwill certificate being revoked and charged back to the dealership, meaning they'll be on the hook for the several thousand dollars Chrysler kicked in to make the initial trade-in possible.

I'm sure this change was spurred by people working in your business, knowing what I know about the bigwigs in the car industry I'm sure they wouldn't do it willingly.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:09

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I believe timing belts are of the devil. I like my cars with good old fashioned timing chains, like God intended. I've always believed this, and my faith was reinforced by personal trials I faced in the early 1990s.

If you think belts are of the devil, then what would you consider the change in the Audi 4.2L V8 from a belt driven cam system to a chain driven cam system for the B6 and B7 S4.

And then installed it backwards, so the chain is next to the firewall.

And then make the tensioner and guides from brittle plastic.

Just ask Doug DeMuro about this...

Or the Audistas.

505Turbeaux > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:11

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no, you need to be intimate with the car. Get in there and inspect it for weird wear, stretching, cracks. If yours was getting ate every 4K miles I would assume there was something wearing on it in the t-belt bay and would cause some bizarre marks on the belt or pulleys.

However at least it wasnt an interference engine. If your engine can eat itself over 25 bucks woth of belt, use a damn chain!

Oh more interference style damage to instill fear into the timing belt negligent crowd

SteveLehto > As Du Volant 01/26/2015 at 13:11

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Actually, I have no idea what got passed on here. The dealer was a pretty good one (they were the same ones I had bought the Daytona FROM) but you never know. I know many car MFRs have rules about what gets passed along but you always wonder. The same is true for some of the MFRs and what they do with the lemon law buybacks. The info is SUPPOSED to be passed along but I know for a fact that it is not always.

Thanks for the note.

Boxer_4 > TheHondaBro 01/26/2015 at 13:12

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Depends on the engine, whether it's interference or non-interference. Most engines now are interference, so the engine will sustain damage if the belt breaks.

SteveLehto > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/26/2015 at 13:12

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I saw that when it ran. It is amazing how complex they can make something when they really try.

jariten1781 > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:13

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Sounds like a 1992 Chrysler problem more than a timing belt problem.

SteveLehto > 505Turbeaux 01/26/2015 at 13:13

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While researching this piece (I do that from time to time before I post) I found an extensive article on the engine in my car and it had a known problem with timing belts. There were not a whole lot of these on the road but it looks like they all that this problem.

SteveLehto > jariten1781 01/26/2015 at 13:14

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I found out that it was more likely a problem with that engine. There weren't a lot of them put on the road but articles I read recently said they all had timing belt problems.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:17

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I would consider this engineering decision "sort of trying" on the part of VW.

"Really trying" would be a gear driven cam system with an oil-pressure adjuster for the cam advance, with adjusting lifters a la BMW Valvetronic...

With the cam drive in between the middle cylinders.

I'll still take the 2.7T V6 timing belt job over the 4.2L V8 timing chain guide and tensioner replacement. Yes, it's a pain, but it's far less of a pain. (Unless you are unlucky enough to require turbo replacements on the B5, in which case, they are both an engine pull to fix them).

As Du Volant > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:19

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Another story about timing belts I just remembered.

I used to work on old Subarus when I was in college, I enjoyed doing it and used to make a little extra cash on the side fixing and selling them. I'd find a cheap one that needed work, fix it, then drive it until I found a better one. Then I'd sell the one I'd been driving and drive the other one for a while.

They had timing belts (two of them!) and non-interference engines. I lived in West Virginia at the time and bought most of them from backwoods type people, most of them just assumed Japanese car + broken timing belt = bad engine.

I always looked for ads saying "needs an engine." Three times I called people about those and they told me the car needed an engine because the timing belt was broken. I'd buy the car for peanuts, have it towed home, and have it back on the road in two hours. That always was fun.

Now the older body style Subarus... those were freakin' tanks. They had timing GEARS.

SteveLehto > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/26/2015 at 13:21

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The HOPE is, of course, that the chain will last so long it becomes a moot point as to which can be replaced easier. Like a crankshaft or something else you assume will last a REALLY long time without popping up on the radar.

I think that is also a problem some designers have - they design the engines and the car with little regard for how easy they are to work on. Or do they sit around at night and laugh about it?

SteveLehto > As Du Volant 01/26/2015 at 13:22

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I meant to mention that in the piece. Chains are great - Gears are Holy and magical.

OPPOsaurus WRX > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:27

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Yea, I don't know if I can follow your faith in Timing chains. My went (well a guide rail) and it took with it the valves head and rods. 04 Sport Trac with 100,450 miles

davedave1111 > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:28

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There's a lot to be said for non-interference engines.

SteveLehto > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/26/2015 at 13:30

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The engines work in mysterious ways . . . .

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:33

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True, but the chain is only as good as the tensioner and guides :) I purposefully cherrypicked the Audi engine because they relied on the "Oh it's a chain!" mentality and forgot that everything else in the timing system has to be up to snuff in order for that to hold.

If you want a good example, then I'd hold up RamblinRover's W124 300D Turbo. That chain lasted somewhere around 300K+ miles before being stretched enough to futz with the injection timing (the injection pump is driven by the timing chain). So we changed it in my garage by removing the valve cover, and I rotated the engine by hand. We broke the master link, linked the end of the old chain to the new one, and I rotated that freaking diesel engine to feed the timing chain into the chaincase. Shockingly, that worked.

they design the engines and the car with little regard for how easy they are to work on. Or do they sit around at night and laugh about it?

Most of the German marques have EIN UND EXACTLY EIN WEG to do any repair, and any other way is just flat out wrong. They probably laugh at the silly Americans who don't have all the Special Tools in the VAG/DBAG/BMW Special Tools Catalog to do repairs properly.

I mean, once you move the front lock carrier on the B5, you bring the engine to TDC, insert the Special Crank Lock Pin tool, put the Special cam drive lock bar on, and then you can easily replace the Special timing belt without losing Special timing. (Did I mention VW is a bit Special that way?)

crowmolly > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:38

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Or you have the other side of the coin- GM's way to make engines run quieter.

Awesome.

jsemerica > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:49

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Are the belts more cost effective to the manufacturer than chains?

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 13:51

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Timing gears . I don't believe that is a complete sentence, but timing gears.

SteveLehto > jsemerica 01/26/2015 at 13:52

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I am not an expert on manufacturing processes but I have always heard that the chains were more expensive than belts in the short run. At least for the manufacturer. Once you factor in the cost of replacing the belt as routine maintenance and/or when it fails, I wonder (from the consumer's perspective).

SteveLehto > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 01/26/2015 at 13:52

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When possible, yes.

AdverseMartyr > bob and john 01/26/2015 at 13:53

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We have our own version of the great satan. It's called an automatic tensioner and when that sucker unexpectedly fails... just grab a new engine from a dead squid.

Or else cheat like I did and break the chain, break the new chain, connect both chains together and roll through the engine, disconnect old chain, then reconnect new chain using new rivet.

Otherwise look forward to taking the engine all the way apart (This may not apply to V-twins, but a GS500 for sure).

bob and john > AdverseMartyr 01/26/2015 at 13:55

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hehe. if my motor ever drops, I'm using it as an excuse to either A: move up to a proper supersport
or B: turbocharge that sucker.

(I also love who you know it was an SV650 XD)

McMike > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 14:00

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I am glad we have moved on from the timing belt.

I have chains in all my cars but one, and that one has neither a chain or a belt.

Tohru > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 14:12

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I owned a FWD Dodge once - a red 1994 Dodge Shadow ES Coupe with the lively spirited present 2.5L 4cyl. and a stick. Snapped a timing belt at 65 on the Interstate, with 95k on it. Fixed it in the driveway, sold it 3 months later.

The real bitch was my Escorts. The 1.9L / 2.0L CVH engines used a timing belt driven water pump. So if the pump failed, you get to do the belt too. The tensioner wasn't very good, and you couldn't get the timing cover off without removing a motor mount. At least it wasn't an interference fit engine.

This all culminates with me sitting in a bank parking lot on New Year's Eve 2013 changing an Escort timing belt tensioner and retiming the engine... with just hand tools... while it's snowing. The timing belt cover came out in six pieces, torn asunder by sheer force while a howl of primal rage ripped through the air.

SteveLehto > Tohru 01/26/2015 at 14:14

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You're a braver person than me . . .

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/26/2015 at 14:24

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Yes, they tend to be on Micras and things. My mother (Micra driver) had one go on her without massive expense.

Me, I get mine changed religiously every 100,000 km. Now on No. 3, but interference engine.

FiST of FuRRY > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 14:34

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I'm with you on this 100%

The only issue is when manufacturers poorly design the chain/tensioners/oilers, thus resulting in catastrophic engine failure.... think GM's Ecotec.

Problems start arising when chains need to be longer for DOHC. A nice short chain (such as the one in my Buick 3.8), should last for the life of the car without servicing. I did however upgrade the cam gear to ALL metal teeth; GM in their infinite wisdom originally used nylon teeth cam gears (ticking time bomb) for quieter operation... idiots!

Interference engines with timing belts always baffled me. I never got why Honda was so popular back in the day with that junk... at least Toyota (for the most part) made their engines non-interference on belt driven engines.... 3SFE FTW!!!!!

Tohru > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 14:39

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I didn't have an option. I was 45 miles from home. I couldn't call my roommate to get me because he was the one driving it when the tensioner failed.

Last time he drove my truck he popped a brake line. We're going to use his car for stuff for now on.

SteveLehto > Tohru 01/26/2015 at 14:47

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Wow. I have heard of some roadside repairs but that would have to be one of the most complex.

Tohru > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 14:52

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Yeah, that car let me practice my inner Australian Bush mechanic side. I also changed an alternator and a dash cluster on the side of the road.

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/26/2015 at 14:57

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I've just got the second car I've ever owned with a NI engine, and both have been old Toyotas - but quite a bit bigger than a Micra. I don't know if any more modern engines are NI. It definitely takes a lot of worry out of things. I just check if the belt looks OK, and if it does, there's no need to change it. Worst that happens is it breaks and I replace it.

FiST of FuRRY > crowmolly 01/26/2015 at 14:58

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EXACTLY! I do in fact believe that's the 3.8 (231) that I have. I kept the original cam gear as souvenir of a bygone era. Thankfully, it was in perfect condition when I replaced it, thus avoiding its inevitable demise.

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/26/2015 at 15:15

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But then, there are things like this:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Hydraulically operated valves (yes, on a two stroke!) so no timing gear at all.

Freddy "Tavarish" Hernandez > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 15:16

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There's no reason a car should just "eat a belt" after 4,000 miles regularly. I'm thinking that a tensioner was faulty, over or understressing the belt to the point of stress cracks appearing and lots of premature wear forming. The original problem was never addressed, so that's why most likely why a belt replacement didn't help.

On non-interference engines, timing belts are no big deal, and I'd much rather prefer them to timing chains, as it's much easier to take off the head in case more work needs to be done. There's also less places to leak oil, and less ways for the oil to get contaminated with metal particulates.

If you think replacing a timing belt is bad, try replacing a timing chain guide on any German car.

SteveLehto > Freddy "Tavarish" Hernandez 01/26/2015 at 15:33

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You'd think so, but it was a design problem. While researching this piece, I ran across this website http://www.allpar.com/mopar/22t.html

which contains this gem:

"Michael Royce noted that the problem with timing belts was that:

"The timing belt tension had to be set so high to overcome "tow roping" of the timing belt, i.e. the timing belt going into negative tension. Tow roping is a belt killer. We found that this problem was caused by the extremely low valvetrain friction from using roller rockers combined with the DOHC set up. As soon as an exhaust valve rocker goes over the nose of the camshaft, there is no friction to slow it down and it tries to close the valve even faster, causing the exhaust cam sprocket to rotate clockwise faster and decrease the tension in the belt span between the sprockets. With a bucket tappet, which is used on most DOHC 4 cylinders, there is friction. On the 8 valve SOHC engine, there is an intake lobe on the same camshaft coming up to help out! So we had to crank up the initial belt tension to solve the problem.

An automatic belt tensioner would probably have helped."

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/26/2015 at 15:48

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That thing revs so slowly it doesn't need timing gear, just to have the valves opened and closed once a day ;)

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/26/2015 at 15:55

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Well, even flat out at 102 rpm you wouldn't need a rev counter, but even for high speed engines camless designs are said to be the future.

4.25 bhp per litre by the way, but then again a thermal efficiency better than 50% and it'll run for twenty years or more.

jsemerica > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 16:14

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I can imagine on some cars, that's major service. Don't have much experience with piston engines, but the rotaries use a chain that's directly connected from the eccentric shaft to the oil pump and it's pretty much bulletproof.

SteveLehto > jsemerica 01/26/2015 at 16:19

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The amount of the hassle depends on the car but the bigger problem is that the belts break unexpectedly. So you end up wherever it broke which can be an inconvenience. The expenses mount from there.

Freddy "Tavarish" Hernandez > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 16:20

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Crap, so it was a fixed tensioner? Jeez, those are horrible.

SteveLehto > Freddy "Tavarish" Hernandez 01/26/2015 at 16:22

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At the time, I had guessed it was something else (other than the belts) because of the way they broke like clockwork. I was guessing a bad gear with a bur on it or some such. Based on what I have read (in the portion I quoted above and other stuff) it looks like there weren't a whole lot of these engines on the road and they all had this problem. Whether they all broke at 4K or not, I don't know but I guarantee the attorney at Chrysler knew all about it when I called him.

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/26/2015 at 16:34

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Isn't that what Koenigsegg are doing?

"4.25 bhp per litre by the way"

Hah, I never thought about that :)

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/26/2015 at 17:33

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Yes, them and many others.

David Jatt > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 18:55

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My favourite belt story is on an old Peugeot (I think 405) the design was such that the belt was very accessible. So all you had to do is cut the belt in half lengthways, pull one half off, slide the new belt half on, snip the old half still remaining and push the new belt all the way on. No special tools needed, timing unaffected.

Allegedly if you got good at it the belt could literally be changed in 15 minutes

MM54 > SteveLehto 01/26/2015 at 21:28

2

Agreed - if a car has a timing belt it's a substantial turn-off for me if I'm looking to own it - chains and gears (especially gears) just can't be beat.

That said, my timing chain is currently in the process of devouring its guides. I should probably fix that.

pip bip - choose Corrour > SteveLehto 01/27/2015 at 03:06

1

had 3 cars in last 18 years , all had timing belts , not 1 has broken on me.

in that time i've clocked up 950,000km.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > AdverseMartyr 01/27/2015 at 03:18

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You pretty much just described Mercedes timing chain replacement procedure. They even have special tools specifically for de-riveting the old chain and temporary links to connect out to the new chain while you roll it in.

AdverseMartyr > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/27/2015 at 03:42

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Sweet! That must mean I am ready to work on any and all Mercedes that might cross my path as I must be able to think like z'Germans! LOL

Though that must mean having to change out a gear sprocket for them is a nightmare. It would mean for the ability to swap it out kind of quick (maybe). I know on my motorcycle it was about a 20 hour difference for me (and increased my odds of actually repairing it to running condition a hundred-fold).

SteveLehto > pip bip - choose Corrour 01/27/2015 at 06:14

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How many belts did you replace?

pip bip - choose Corrour > SteveLehto 01/27/2015 at 06:23

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Vectra had 5 (60k intervals) traded it at 358k

Astra on original when sold only had 42k.

Lancer has 100k intervals so i'm on my 6th. has 553,000km on it at present

SteveLehto > pip bip - choose Corrour 01/27/2015 at 06:41

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I had three Explorers in a row, combined 500,000 miles. Original chains on all three when I moved on.

Just depends on whether you like doing the work or not.

pip bip - choose Corrour > SteveLehto 01/27/2015 at 06:50

1

that's impressive for chains.

i work at GM-Holden dealer the number of Captiva/Commodores with HFV6 motor that needed timing chain replacement is cruel , CEL comes on , sets code P0008 , $2500 later thanks for coming.

chains aren't the answer every time.

SteveLehto > pip bip - choose Corrour 01/27/2015 at 06:53

1

You must see quite a few broken belts too though, right?

pip bip - choose Corrour > SteveLehto 01/27/2015 at 07:03

1

actually no.

very uncommon.

maybe 1 a year.

as more people are use to them ,plus belt and tensioner quality has improved , it doesn't happen unless you truly neglect your ride.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > AdverseMartyr 01/27/2015 at 09:53

0

Yeah, definitely! Time for you to start a Mercedes shop!

Depends on the sprocket. Cam sprockets are quite easy, everything else is 20+ hours by the book. But chain drive stuff isn't really problematic on Mercedes, except for '06 MY M272/M273 engines. Aside from those I've only ever had to replace one chain (on stuff newer than mid-90's anyways).

SteveLehto > pip bip - choose Corrour 01/27/2015 at 11:34

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Things must be different in Australia. Here, people can't be bothered to change their oil on time. You think they'll change a timing belt because it is "scheduled maintenance"?

pip bip - choose Corrour > SteveLehto 01/28/2015 at 01:51

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generally most people change their oil on time , we do see a few who do it sporadically , worst i saw was a Toyota Corolla no oil change from new to 64,000km and they only did it then when the driver noticed the kilometres on it.

as for the timing belt , generally people here will do it because of it being general maintenance.

maximusorama > SteveLehto 01/28/2015 at 07:24

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I know that stretch of road... it's on I75 just north or Exit 69, Big Beaver Road. Cannot make this stuff up.

SteveLehto > maximusorama 01/28/2015 at 08:53

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Seriously. How BIG was the beaver to get a road named after it?

Shoop > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 17:29

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the other option is pushrods :D

SteveLehto > Shoop 01/30/2015 at 17:31

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Or timing gears. Anything but belts!

Manuél Ferrari > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 17:31

4

You speak the truth. It bums me out that Ferrari didn't move to timing chains until the Enzo/F430/599. Imagine how much money you would lose if you bought a used 90's vintage Ferrari and the belt snapped on the drive home...

wkiernan > TheHondaBro 01/30/2015 at 17:39

1

Not if you have a non-interference engine; you just coast to a stop, and the repair can be fairly easy and cheap, as long as the engine is accessible. This only happened to me once, in a Corolla with 200,000+ miles on it that was on the original belt.

I have had three Miatas, and between them I've driven 275,000 miles, and I haven't had a timing belt fail on me yet. I did replace the belt in two of them, at 200% of the recommended interval (i.e. at about 120/130K miles).

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > 505Turbeaux 01/30/2015 at 17:39

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This is my why timing belt-equipped Volvo is a redblock... (My other is a 122, which has pushrods and the cam is gear-driven. No chains or belts to worry about.) :P

That said, I am thinking about getting a 960 wagon... However, step 1 of ownership will be to change the timing belt and water pump.

In_Sweden > David Jatt 01/30/2015 at 18:01

1

Apparently the modern day Renault Kangoo has the easiest to change timing belt. As if it was designed with ease of service in mind when it was built.

WesBarton89 - The Way to Santa Fe > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 18:01

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I'm glad that you posted this. I'm going to look at a car tomorrow that's got a timing chain, interference engine. This is some good insight into the whole thing.

SteveLehto > WesBarton89 - The Way to Santa Fe 01/30/2015 at 18:02

2

Oh, that's a mixed bag. Timing chain good; interference engine bad.

WesBarton89 - The Way to Santa Fe > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 18:09

1

Yeah, I know. And it already has somewhere slightly south of a quarter million miles. But, I do understand they kept service records. I'll find out when the last service was, and if I need a new chain, I'll buy one and put it on. We'll see what happens!

Rob > In_Sweden 01/30/2015 at 18:09

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That is utter cacamamy. No car is ever designed with serviceability in mind!

NONE EVERRRR!

SteveLehto > WesBarton89 - The Way to Santa Fe 01/30/2015 at 18:10

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, my Explorer made it to 241K with the original chain and was running strong when I got rid of it last month.

WesBarton89 - The Way to Santa Fe > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 18:16

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That's really good. I had a '92 Explorer that I paid $100 for, and it was pretty good. The odometer read 30k, but it also didn't have a hundred-thousandths place either, so it could've been anywhere from 30k to 230k, which is what I'm leaning toward. Good vehicle for $100. Lasted pretty well, going 50-100 miles a day for 6 months until the transmission went out. I'm not a Ford guy, but I will not deny, I liked driving that thing.

VashVashVash > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 18:23

2

I had a similar conversation with my mechanic a while back, saying that I never want to own anything with a timing belt ever again. That's when he told me that timing belts started being an improvement over the timing chain. The old timing chains, especially ones running over sprockets with plastic gears, used to jump teeth fairly regularly.

Modern chains don't do that anymore. But its funny how yesterdays problem can be tomorrows solution.

505Turbeaux > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 01/30/2015 at 18:26

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as a veteran of 960's, you are thinking the right way.

I like the 3.0 myself. Thing sounds fantastic at WOT

VashVashVash > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 18:31

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I don't see how tow roping will do a chain any favors. Also not to be too pedantic, but gears mesh with other gears, chains are turned by sprockets, and belts are turned by pulleys. I'll see myself out.

VashVashVash > Shoop 01/30/2015 at 18:32

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There is still a chain in that engine

Shoop > VashVashVash 01/30/2015 at 18:33

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But it's not a very long chain.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > 505Turbeaux 01/30/2015 at 18:48

1

Looks like there was a serious knock/detonation issue on that one as well. WOW.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/30/2015 at 18:49

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I am a huge VW/Audi guy.

But their use of plastic engine internals drives me crazy.

505Turbeaux > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 01/30/2015 at 18:59

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lil bit

Axial > VashVashVash 01/30/2015 at 19:04

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Good news is that it's a non-interference engine. Even the older Chevy V8s are that way.

PS9 > Manuél Ferrari 01/30/2015 at 19:12

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I have joined the Manuél master race.

I like pooping. > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/30/2015 at 19:28

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only now did I realize that there are two German auto conglomerates whose acronyms spell out naughty things. I've always known about VAG, but today I learned about DBAG as well.

I like pooping. > pip bip - choose Corrour 01/30/2015 at 19:32

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60k km? that's about 40k miles. and I thought my CRX's 60k mile interval was paltry. (the Toyota truck is 100k, and the Taurus is a chain.)

speaking of the Toyota truck; I got it with 238k on the odometer. a notation in the engine compartment showed that the timing belt had been done at 96k, so I figured it prudent to get it done right then and there. a few weeks later I'm browsing through the manual, and out falls a receipt for a timing belt service at 201k. damn!!

pip bip - choose Corrour > I like pooping. 01/30/2015 at 19:38

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the Vectra originally had 120,000km service intervals for the belts but rumour was a quite a few broke before then so GM-Holden decided to change the intervals.

as it turns out when i changed mine at 75,000km there were 2 bolts almost at the point of falling out so who knows what damage they could have done.

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > 505Turbeaux 01/30/2015 at 19:52

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A wagon, too? If yours was a late car, rather than an early one, I'd be reaching through the internet to slap you for not still having it.

My ideal is a 97 or 98 wagon in Blackberry, but I'll take any post-95 wagon, at this point.

Manuél Ferrari > PS9 01/30/2015 at 19:54

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oh yeah? new purchase?

dogisbadob > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 20:00

4

I fucking hate timing belts, especially in interference engines! Instead of replacing the belt, you'd get a new motor every 4k!

Even in the non-interference engines, though, it still sucks having to do a big job like that every few years when they have chains that last forever!

roflcopter > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 20:01

7

What's a timing belt/chain? #rotarymasterrace

heyheauxs > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 20:06

1

I had a plastic pulley go grenade & take out both belts on supercharged 3800. Had to take the engine halfway out in the dead of winter to change some fucking belts (not a timing belt, but still).

Duckferd > TheHondaBro 01/30/2015 at 20:13

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Funny you should say that, since the Honda V6 still uses a timing belt

TheHondaBro > Duckferd 01/30/2015 at 20:15

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Yeah, sucks I didn't get a timing belt-less car for my first car.

Duckferd > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 20:17

3

This is also a case of the dealer doing a half-ass job. The car doesn't just magically eat timing belts every 4K miles, it means that something else is wrong with one of the many pulleys that the belt goes around, either a misalignment, improper belt tension or otherwise. I would have gone to another dealer after the 2nd belt snap.

mhadden > SteveLehto 01/30/2015 at 20:35

1

Chains are better than belts, but I've had problems with chains, too. Namely, on a BMW K1200GT. Talk about a terrible noise when the chain slips teeth and valves start doinkin' pistons...

superknoppix > 505Turbeaux 01/30/2015 at 20:46

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uh, are those broken valves stuck in the pistons???